Curse

kazjun · May 28, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

You seem to assume there's a big market for sub-20 bags. Is there such a market? Cause I haven't seen it. And if there is no market, then your whole argument about there not being any waste falls apart right there.

zwei2stein · May 28, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Maintaining high value of the ZCoins is important for the whole system to be worthwhile and all the Zquests remain well rewarding.

You do realize that zoins will have essentially zero value once people get bags they aim for, right?

Issue is that there are no meaningful rewards past the bag. That is real neck-breaker. Attempts to make bag acquisition more of a pain do not solve that. They can not.

jaximus · May 28, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

personally i like the system as it is. you dont NEED the big bag, i have the 10 slot bags on my people. enough for that extra head pieces + random other armor chunks, and serves me well. you have to think what you want and build up to it.

only way i could see it changing is making it cost a total of 20 gold coins or more through the upgrades. like a loan, with high interest. you could get it slowly, but it would cost you more.

Undead King Knight · May 29, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Jaximus but then people wouldn't want to upgrade slowly because it be faster to get 15 coins instead of 20 coins.

MithranArkanere · May 29, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Total cost over should be more by upgrading than by getting the bags, but less than the sum of the prices of the bags.
Getting just the big costs 7500.

Small to light -> 250 (5 silver)
Light to large -> 2000 (4 gold)
Large to Heavy -> 5000 (10 gold)

The extra price? Paid in gold. Since you'll pay gold 4 times instead of 1.

jaximus · May 29, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead King Knight

Jaximus but then people wouldn't want to upgrade slowly because it be faster to get 15 coins instead of 20 coins.

people want to be able to use the bags instead of waiting and stockpiling the coins and trading it in for the heavy. i still believe they should NOT be ugradable though. the z quests keep people interested because YOU have to work for something if you want it. thats the whole reason behind not being able to trade coins. if you could upgrade packs, it would take much less time to get a heavy one. being able to upgrade them would make them much easier to get.

heres an example. you and a couple friends want heavy packs, so friend 1 gets it and trades to friend 2, he upgrades and trades it to friends 3, who upgrades it again. this makes it much easier to get the max pack and you can avoid the issue of not trading coins. this is far to easy to get a max pack without having to save/budget. by making the coins untradable and the packs unupgradable, it gives people things to do for a while. it keeps peoples interest. the whole reason behind z quests. if you were able to get the stuff more quickly, people would lose interest and slowly stop playing.

again, i am all for leaving it as is. i dont want to see packs upgradable. if for some reason they do make them this way, make it the same as a rent to own. if you can use the pack while you gather coins, you surely should have to pay more for the use. also, the packs should customize (account maybe) on upgrade to avoid the ability to trade->upgrade->trade.

Tenebrae · May 29, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You do realize that zoins will have essentially zero value once people get bags they aim for, right?

Issue is that there are no meaningful rewards past the bag. That is real neck-breaker. Attempts to make bag acquisition more of a pain do not solve that. They can not.

QFT. Those bags are not consumables or weapons that collectors will buy "just to have it" or for having more "prestidge" . Once almost all ppl have some 20slot bags , Zcoins are going to be worth "nothing" . Making them expensive just makes this process last longer .... but wait .... isnt that what Anet was looking for since the beggining of these ZQ ? to make ppl last longer ingame ? .... just my 2 cents

MithranArkanere · May 29, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

[...] if you could upgrade packs, it would take much less time to get a heavy one. being able to upgrade them would make them much easier to get.[...]

Not that it would take the same time, or even more, and it won't be easier. The only difference is that you will be able to use some slots as you upgrade before getting the max, instead having to spend all the time without the bag.

Yawgmoth · May 30, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

What's hard to understand here??

Making bags upgradable = making them easier to get = devaluing them

(except for when upgrading costs are nearly as high as getting new ones of course)

And the high prices are there to ensure people will ALWAYS want more bigger bags. Even if individuals will get all they want, the general masses will want more and bigger bags forever. It will take long long months till I'll get 20-slots for main playable characters, 15-slots for main trader-mules and 10-slots for all lesser mules on all accounts.

And the bags will be the ONLY things worth getting for the zcoins for EVER if no major change happens. But if bad updates nerf the value of the bags and zcoins with them as they're tied and they drop so low that it will actually be fine to purchase any of the current non-bag items with them, it will be the ultimate FAIL of the whole system.
ZCoins MUST retain a high value, that's why I say *NO* to any suggested nerfs that would hit them.

MithranArkanere · May 30, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Well, as I said here's your exception:

Small to light -> 250 (5 silver)
Light to large -> 2000 (4 gold)
Large to Heavy -> 5000 (10 gold)

Total cost of a Heavy Bag:
- 7500 zCooper + ...
- 50gold by upgrading 250 cooper to 5 zSilver
- 400gold for upgrading 2000 cooper to 40 zSilver
- 200gold for upgrading 40 silver to 4 zGold.
- 1000gold for upgrading 5000 cooper to 100 zSilver.
- 500 gold for upgrading 100 silver to 10 zGold.

If you look at the prices of items that can be acquired in other places like traders or merchants (and discard the extra gold), each zCooper counts as 10 gold, so then:
Total cost for getting a 20 slot bag by upgrading: 7250 cooper + 4950gold = 77450 gold.
Total cost for getting a 20 slot bag directly: 7500 + 2350 gold = 77350 gold.
See? Actually more expensive.
The difference is that you get to use a bag while you gather ZCoins, instead of expending hours and hours hoarding an item until GW2 is released and you leave change to it with a bunch of unused ZCoins in the Xunlai Storage.